Universal Health Care

[hellsnat]

Ok, I know this is a good one, and I hope this one can be kept civil.

There are a few fixes that can be put in place to make our health care system improve.

Do I think we need the government to step in and give health care to everyone? Absolutely not!

Every one already has it. Just paying for it is where it gets sketchy.

Here is my point on that. If you are walking across the street in Royal Oak and get hit by a car, what will happen? If you don't have health care will everyone just look and watch you keep getting run over like the poor squirrel? No, not at all. Someone will call 911, and an ambulance will show up and take you to the hospital to get you fixed, no matter what your financial situation.

Health care is a choice that has opportunity cost. It's all about priorities. Do we pay for a catastrophic health care plan, and keep the motorcycle?

Or do we just go without health care and mod the heck out of our bikes? (smirk)

Ok, this will get informative.

Here is my main points.

1. If something is "Free" it must be rationed. (in every economic situation. I'm sure someone will try to pick this apart trying to move the attention away from original statement.)

2. If someone decides they don't want to be a productive member of society, and want to live off of government programs, then why should they be in line in front of someone who pays the taxes to so the government can have this universal health care?

3. This is the next step in our government moving to a Socialist society and the people just letting it happen.

Here is a story for everyone.

How to catch wild pigs.

Put a pile of grain out in the woods. And the wild pigs will find it, and start to eat it.

Then after some time, put up a 10 yard strait section of fence. All the while keeping the pile of free food.

The Pigs will be apprehensive of it, but will eventually go to the free food.

Then after some more time, put up another side of fence starting a box. All the while keeping the pile of free food.

Wait for the pigs to get used to it, and then throw up the 3rd side.

When they get used to that, put up the last section with a remote gate.

Keeping a pile of free food.

When they all go into it, hit the remote, lock the gate. At this point the pigs will be worked up about being caged in, but will eventually go for the free food, and be content.

[SONNY_TMCF]

Why in the world are working Americans stumbling all over themselves to give the same benefits to LAZY non working Americans is beyond me !!

I dont have Kids , make a great living , and HATE paying taxes...

Nuff said

[Duner]

I know I dont like the idea of self funded health care with ira accounts.
With employers able to bail on health insurance for employees, that would account for big paycuts for employees that already had watched companies farm work to china in the 90's. A bull proft growth decade, of the sake of more profits.
It's hard enough for people to find jobs with health insurance today as it is.
And with full time jobs disappearing and health insurance disappearing from the job market fast, it's getting pretty ugly.
I agree universal health care is not a good path either, and that our current system can be fixed with some tweaks, without tax payers money, particularly drug costs issues.

[hellsnat]

I know I dont like the idea of self funded health care with ira accounts.

Me either, but there is a way for a tax deduction savings program with this.

With employers able to bail on health insurance for employees, that would account for big paycuts for employees that already had watched companies farm work to china in the 90's. A bull proft growth decade, of the sake of more profits.

I don't have a full answer to this, but a thought is to invest in stocks. The stakeholders in these companies are benefiting. (I totally don't agree with CEO's taking these huge payouts, but that is something that stakeholders need to fix)

It's hard enough for people to find jobs with health insurance today as it is.
And with full time jobs disappearing and health insurance disappearing from the job market fast, it's getting pretty ugly.

Yes, but at least some people still have jobs. I'm not saying it is right, but, at least people have jobs and can pick and choose what they need to do.


I agree universal health care is not a good path either, and that our current system can be fixed with some tweaks, without tax payers money, particularly drug costs issues.

I agree with you 100% on this comment!


One major problem I have is people who have jobs with great benefits and don't use them. I.E. Tuition Assistance.

Then when they loose their jobs, they want to complain that the free market is screwing them. When actually they screwed themselves by not taking advantage of the benefits they had. I.E. getting an education to make yourself more marketable in the job market when and if your current job is lost for what ever reason.

Complacency will do nothing but put your resume at the bottom of the pile.

[fasterbusa]

It is a very complicated issue and involve other concepts that have not been mentioned.

Quick thoughts:
No free lunch.
Nothing for illegal aliens.
Keep alot of the litigation out of the process, no frivolus suits and other BS.
Everyone pays co-pays and deductables, the amount would have to be decided upon, but non of this BS "I ain't going to pay no co-pays" stuff.
Stop the golden medical program for life that the members of Congress get.
Give them what the "little people" get.

No free universal health care.

[hellsnat]

I agree with every thought you have there Web.

My favorite is your last one. Give Congress what the little people get. How about this, put them on the same plan as our welfare people get. Because, neither welfare receivers nor congress are doing anything for our economy. (smirk)

Wait, do people on welfare have medical? or do hey just go to the hospital for what ever they feel like going and then dont have to pay? (scratching my head)

Here I go, talking about something I know nothing about.

[fasterbusa]

Another misconception shared by many people these days is that the poor or homeless do not have or recieve medical care.

On the contrary.
They get everything for free.
However, their medical care is not exactly free.
What happens is that, by law, if a person goes to a hospital, they must be treated without worry about possesing the ability to pay the bills.

After being treated, the poor person simply does not pay the bill. The hospital attempts to collect on the bills, but being poor or homeless, there is nothing to collect.

So who pays the bill?
The taxes of the rest of the Nation pay for that poor person's bill.

In places like San Diego, every illegal alien that is caught gets a checkup at the local hospital "free of charge" as it were. What happens? The hospital runs out of money so that the legal residents of the city have a much harder time being treated.

The people who get nailed in the health care system are the people they call the "working poor" or even much of the middle class who might have good jobs, but no medical insurance.

These are the groups that the Universal Health Care is supposed to "catch".

Again, it is a very complicated affair.

[SONNY_TMCF]

Let me also say this for the bleeding heart types..

Dont like " Big Oil " making mad bank ??

Ughhhh then why does it make sense to have there employees start paying for health care... Good lord folks ..

Employeer not paying health benefits ? DONT assume your going to get a raise.

[Vash]

Hi guys.

a few thoughts. I think getting employers out of the health insurance buisness is a good idea, because it will let consumers see the cost of what they are ALREADY paying for (with lower wages).

My other thought is that we need to redefine health insurance. Insurance isnt supposed to cover events that are guaranteed to happen, regularly. That would be like a car warranty covering the cost of oil changes.

However those are side points. I think the main problem revolves around the fact that we are counting the costs going into health care, not the results (which are hard to measure). Most people get paid for what they accomplish, however, doctors, lawyers, and a few other professions get paid for what they try. Change that around, and see the costs of things go down. However, those with pre existing conditions will be even more fucked than they are now, and will have to be taken care of on public money... much like they are now.

[hellsnat]

My other thought is that we need to redefine health insurance. Insurance isnt supposed to cover events that are guaranteed to happen, regularly. That would be like a car warranty covering the cost of oil changes.

I have made this same analogy in conversations in the past.

[Duner]

"My other thought is that we need to redefine health insurance. Insurance isnt supposed to cover events that are guaranteed to happen, regularly. That would be like a car warranty covering the cost of oil changes"


I have made this same analogy in conversations in the past.

Not if you have been paying into a system and exercised low usage in youth and needed coverage as you aged.

Health insurance companies love your money when your young, and when it comes time to give up sum bucks they get bent outta shape.
Just like property and vehicle insurance during katrina.
The government need to step in and tell them to play nice in the sandbox.

[hellsnat]

Not if you have been paying into a system and exercised low usage in youth and needed coverage as you aged.

Health insurance companies love your money when your young, and when it comes time to give up sum bucks they get bent outta shape.
Just like property and vehicle insurance during katrina.
The government need to step in and tell them to play nice in the sandbox.

Look at it from a vehicle insurance stand point.

When is it cheap? When your older and don't need it because you stay our of trouble/accidents.

It's just the opposite, with medical insurance. When your young, you don't have to pay that much, why? because you don't normally need it. (baring a pre existing condition) But the older you get, (just like a car) the more work you will probably need done.

And your last comment, well, I'd like to see the government keep their fingers out of it. Except to make companies stick to what they signed up for.

We need to make sure that government doesn't come in and use force. If there is any government intervention it should only be to make people uphold the contracts they got themselves into.

(hope all that came out right)

[fasterbusa]

I would not use Katrina as an example. A whole can of worms all by itself.

One of the important things for a reduction in the price of health services would be to better educate the citizenry.

Too often, people who do not need ER services, go running to the ER.
An example would be people who go for a simple cold or even the flu for healthy people.

If needed, go to the family doctor for things like that, but common, drink plenty of fluids, get plenty of rest and take aspirin... how hard is that?

And again, get the parasitic ambulance chasers out of the mix and that will help keep the costs down.

[Duner]

However those are side points. I think the main problem revolves around the fact that we are counting the costs going into health care, not the results (which are hard to measure). Most people get paid for what they accomplish, however, doctors, lawyers, and a few other professions get paid for what they try. Change that around, and see the costs of things go down. However, those with pre existing conditions will be even more fucked than they are now, and will have to be taken care of on public money... much like they are now.


not bad.... I likey.
Interesting.

[Duner]

I would not use Katrina as an example. A whole can of worms all by itself.

One of the important things for a reduction in the price of health services would be to better educate the citizenry.

Too often, people who do not need ER services, go running to the ER.
An example would be people who go for a simple cold or even the flu for healthy people.

If needed, go to the family doctor for things like that, but common, drink plenty of fluids, get plenty of rest and take aspirin... how hard is that?

And again, get the parasitic ambulance chasers out of the mix and that will help keep the costs down.

I think Katrina is the perfect example.
Insurance companies set the contracts and when they needed to shell out cash, they tried to bail on their own terms of contract, not unlike Bear Stearns, imho.

As for the the changes you mentioned,
These were dynamics that existed for 40 years without roadblocks.
Sure, they would make a nice issue to polish up, but are not root issues that have changed the picture.

[fasterbusa]

While people get upset over Katrina and the insurance companys, one has to understand what kind of event the bulk of the people were insuring againt.

If one insures for "A", yet gets hit by "B", then even though the property is damaged, the insurance company is under no obligation to pay out as that is not what the policy covered.

A whole lot of people got hammered because they were not covered for the right event.
That is not the fault of the insurance company.

Unfortunate, but that is how insurance works.

[hellsnat]

While people get upset over Katrina and the insurance companys, one has to understand what kind of event the bulk of the people were insuring againt.

If one insures for "A", yet gets hit by "B", then even though the property is damaged, the insurance company is under no obligation to pay out as that is not what the policy covered.

A whole lot of people got hammered because they were not covered for the right event.
That is not the fault of the insurance company.

Unfortunate, but that is how insurance works.

Very well put.

When we lived in Topeka, KS, (I know, coast guard in kansas?) the house behind us had to have flood insurance, but we didn't. So we chose not to pay for it. At one point we thought, well, I wish we would have got it. But we ended up ok. Our insurance would pay for water damage, if it wasn't a result of a flood.

[Duner]

While people get upset over Katrina and the insurance companys, one has to understand what kind of event the bulk of the people were insuring againt.

If one insures for "A", yet gets hit by "B", then even though the property is damaged, the insurance company is under no obligation to pay out as that is not what the policy covered.

A whole lot of people got hammered because they were not covered for the right event.
That is not the fault of the insurance company.

Unfortunate, but that is how insurance works.

I mean the people that were properly covered contractualy, but the insurance companies tried to bail.

[Duner]

As for the the changes you mentioned,
These were dynamics that existed for 40 years without roadblocks.
Sure, they would make a nice issue to polish up, but are not root issues that have changed the picture.

sidenote:
I recall health insurance companies operating just fine before "Managed Health Care" was implemented.
:2cents:

[hellsnat]

sidenote:
I recall health insurance companies operating just fine before "Managed Health Care" was implemented.
:2cents:


Oh, have you struck it right on the head!!!:thumb2:

[Vash]

Oh, have you struck it right on the head!!!:thumb2:

Can we just agree that the gov't seems to suck at damn near anything it does, so the less it does the better?

[fasterbusa]

I do not agree with that statement.
It seems to be overbroad and incorrect.

What might be more accurate is that sometimes there is a big difference between what the intent was and what the execution turned out to be.

But there are a whole lot of steps being the Gov on top and the "benefiting" citizen on the bottom and often a whole lot of other hands find there way into the stream.

However, no one says that there cannot be room for improvement.

[Luckystrike]

Can we just agree that the gov't seems to suck at damn near anything it does, so the less it does the better?

+1 :thumb2:

Look at the Welfare System, it's speculated that 70 cents of every dollar goes not to poor people, but to government bureaucrats and others who serve the poor. I read a couple of years ago that every person on welfare supports one full time 40k salaried gov't employee.